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To the original poster.
(Or, for that matter, anyone else in a similar position.)
If you are wondering if it’s your imagination or not, then it’s probably not.
If you’re being told (habitually, over and over, by a strange person or strangely behaved person) that you’re crazy, you’re stupid, you’re bratty, you’re rude, selfish, stuck up, jealous, mean, cruel, excessively angry or toxic, you’re just constantly making things up, and so on.
You’re not. *They* are.
Just so you know.By the way and to anybody.
Borderline with narcissistic tendencies is (believed to be probably) more common than actual narcissism.
Tough to tell, of course, because borderline personality disorder and narcissism are both very underdiagnosed and also are both very often misdiagnosed as various other things.
(And of course *some* people *with* those disorders do tend to have other things also.)
Just letting anyone/everyone know.
(In case, that is, anyone besides me is ever actually *here* again.)If you want my opinion then here it is.
I think she is probably borderline with narcissistic tendencies.
(Based particularly on, she does act nice to you sometimes, seems like this is mainly just when she is the right mood, or probably so.)
She could have a mood disorder, or borderline personality disorder, or narcissistic personality disorder, or some combination of the above.
Bottom line though. Whatever is wrong with her.
For your own peace of mind, you probably shouldn’t stay with her any more.
Get out, move on, and find somebody else.
Preferably as soon as reasonably possible.
Good luck.I need to get numbers 1 and 2 printed out and put on a wall sometime.
To remind me not to cooperate with or participate in *that* kind of thing, any more, ever again.
When a person is like that, or is acting like that, or is treating you like that, for ANY reason, just get out of the circle.
(Easier said than done. That’s why I might need a reminder. Why *all* sensible, reasonable people might.)Often had wondered before if this sort of thing is what is meant by being “caught in a circular conversation” (or stuck, trapped, etc.).
Yes. This is definitely it.
Been in so many of these I can’t even count them any more.
And most were all with the same person.
Sigh.Thank you to Renee for the useful information and the informative education.
Many thanks.Second post by me is posted as correction to first one.
(Sorry, I don’t know how to edit in these forums.)
Doesn’t much matter because most of the time no one is here anyway.
But just in case anyone besides me does ever happen to read this.
We really, really need either more people here or another group of forums which would be very similar but more popular.
Enjoying posting here anyway but seriously there is literally only me here most of the time.
It’s like arriving at a class *after* everyone has already gone home, but the teacher (Renee in this case) has fortunately at least left the topic of discussion available in handouts and on the blackboard for you to find.
Thank you, Renee, I appreciate it very much. ☺️1,2,4,7, and to a lesser extent, 5 and 6.
Experienced by me with a particular person.
Possible reasons for this might include:
ADHD, dyslexia, bipolar, borderline, borderline with narcissistic tendencies, migraine disorder, and being abused or neglected or not receiving enough love or enough appropriate teaching or guidance about communication and people and life.
Or possibly all of the above.
1 and 2 are especially strong.
Read your first few sentences and was already thinking “good grief, that’s her” in the first few moments.
In my view, people who do approximately half of these, but do certainly show *some* consideration for others and *some* appreciation for others’ point of view at least *sometimes*, and who above all do really seem like they *can’t* communicate rather than won’t, are probably *not* narcissists and may well *actually* have learning disorders and/or autism spectrum disorders (instead of just pretending to or seeming to).
When the diagnosis matters.
When there’s a real chance that the person really could have a brain disorder (or maybe more than one) which affects communication, and when you can actually get them to go to a professional and get diagnosed.
Which probably isn’t often, as far as that last part.
I do strongly suspect that *for some people* the actual original problem is that their brain disorder (or maybe more than one) is harmfully affecting their communication skills, which is in turn harmfully affecting their people skills, which is in turn harmfully affecting their friendships and relationships, of which they somehow seem to have no clue because *something* (which could be a brain disorder, or something else, or both) is preventing them from understanding that the problem is actually even their own.
The kind of people I’m thinking of, I believe that they genuinely don’t understand.
Somewhat depending on what their other symptoms and circumstances are, of course.
Also. The exact same people may believe that *you* are tricking them, gaslighting them, using circular reasoning/circular logic with them, etc.
And they probably sincerely believe it.
I’ve experienced *that* kind of thing plenty and it sure is frustrating. (Most of it with one person over the course of many years.)
Never did experience any *deliberate* gaslighting, that I know of, but *finally* found out just this year that it doesn’t have to be deliberate and that *anyone* can do it. (Not just people who have disorders. Anybody.)
In theory, at least, I could accidentally gaslight her, she could accidentally gaslight me, we could *both* make each other doubt our reason or our sanity or our common sense, and it does not even have to be on purpose.
Interesting theory.
Could be true.1,2,4,7, and to a lesser extent, 5 and 6.
Experienced by me with a particular person.
Possible reasons for this might include:
ADHD, dyslexia, bipolar, borderline, borderline with narcissistic tendencies, migraine disorder, and being abused or neglected or not receiving enough love or enough appropriate teaching or guidance about communication and people and life.
1 and 2 are especially strong.
Read your first few sentences and was already thinking “good grief, that’s her” or possibly all of the above.
In my view, people who do approximately half of these, but do certainly show *some* consideration for others and *some* appreciation for others’ point of view at least *sometimes*, and who above all do really seem like they *can’t* communicate rather than won’t, are probably *not* narcissists and may well *actually* have learning disorders and/or autism spectrum disorders (instead of just pretending to or seeming to).
When the diagnosis matters.
When there’s a real chance that the person really could have a brain disorder (or maybe more than one) which affects communication, and when you can actually get them to go to a professional and get diagnosed.
Which probably isn’t often, as far as that last part.
I do strongly suspect that *for some people* the actual original problem is that their brain disorder (or maybe more than one) is harmfully affecting their communication skills, which is in turn harmfully affecting their people skills, which is in turn harmfully affecting their friendships and relationships, of which they somehow seem to have no clue because *something* (which could be a brain disorder, or something else, or both) is preventing them from understanding that the problem is actually even their own.
The kind of people I’m thinking of, I believe that they genuinely don’t understand.
Somewhat depending on what their other symptoms and circumstances are, of course.
Also. The exact same people may believe that *you* are tricking them, gaslighting them, using circular reasoning/circular logic with them, etc.
And they probably sincerely believe it.
I’ve experienced *that* kind of thing plenty and it sure is frustrating. (Most of it with one person over the course of many years.)
Never did experience any *deliberate* gaslighting, that I know of, but *finally* found out just this year that it doesn’t have to be deliberate and that *anyone* can do it. (Not just people who have disorders. Anybody.)
In theory, at least, I could accidentally gaslight her, she could accidentally gaslight me, we could *both* make each other doubt our reason or our sanity or our common sense, and it does not even have to be on purpose.
Interesting theory.
Could be true.Thank you.
This is good information.Identity theft, of a sort.
Losing your identity to them.
Feeling like you are not even yourself when you are with them.
Feeling like you are whoever and whatever they labeled you to be.
That is indeed exactly what it’s like.
And that’s why it makes you feel crazy.
And the person doesn’t even have to be an actual narcissist. It’s their stupid *behavior* that’s the problem.
That, and the way it makes you feel.
(Thank you to Renee for noticing that and for recognizing that. ☺️)
Grieving for the past few days for someone I once knew.
She was my childhood best friend, or I thought she was.
She was a good girl back then, most of the time.
At some point in her life or at several points in her life, something happened to change her or possibly several things, and she now does a weird kind of “looking out for number one” that is not what I think any *good* therapist would really recommend.
I think she has possibly maybe been abused and hurt too much and destroyed too much, but the way she takes it out on other people is not okay.
Anong other things, she pushes people away from her when she is not ready to deal with them, and then tries to *make* them come back into her life, whether they like it or not, later on.
She will then push them away again when she finds out that (because of her behavior) they do not believe that she is a normal healthy person whose only problem is somebody else and *that* person’s problem.
She *does not want* other people to *genuinely* know, understand, trust and believe in her.
She wants them to believe in *her version* of her and nothing else will do.
Her version of herself seems to be somehow getting all mixed up with things like victim mentality and complaining about everything wrong with her and trying to make herself seem healthy, all at the same time.
I can tell that *in some ways* she is probably trying to improve.
But in other ways, she really is not.
Have grieved for her as if she were dead, and worried about her because she is living and not necessarily in a good situation, at the same time, multiple times now.
Tired of it.
Wanting to move on somehow from this but as you say, these things do take time.
Feels different on different days too.
Not always sure what’s really going on with her but just sure that I really don’t want to be a part of it any more.
Only contact with her is long distance and that only very occasionally.
Total no contact forever does not really feel right either.
(At least, not to me anyway. Don’t really know for sure about her.)
It’s just a strange situation.
And hard for most people to ever really understand.
That’s why I try to find a few people who will know what I’m talking about.Thank you. Exactly.
If we could just get a few more people here sometime and we could maybe post more about this very topic.
(Is so-and-so narcissistic, histrionic, borderline, etc., etc. and so on? Doesn’t matter a bit unless you are trying to learn more about and understand more about the person and/or the disorder or disorders [some people do tend to have more than one]. [Even for research and educational purposes, the diagnosis or potential diagnosis or diagnostic criteria shouldn’t always be the only factor. Obviously. Or perhaps it’s less obvious to some people or in some cases.] Shouldn’t *ever* be what guides you as to whether to leave them or not. The diagnosis, or the potential or probable or possible diagnosis, should never guide what your actions about the situation should be. Go with your gut, instead. Are you feeling terribly uncomfortable with the person and/or about the situation, maybe even more and more as time goes on? Is it obviously an unhealthy situation for you? Then leave.)
Pet peeve at present.
“My husband, wife or significant other is a covert narcissist.”
Maybe, maybe not, and just maybe we don’t really need to know.
Nor do you.
Tell us the behavior, and figure out what to DO about the situation, instead.
Thanks, Renee. Good job. ^____^Have not ever witnessed or experienced *this* particular type of “circular conversation” in which there is no conversation, there is no argument, it is absolutely just a lecture, period.
Have definitely been involved in some extremely strange conversations, however.
The kind that make me want to literally *never* have *any* sort of conversation with *that* person ever again.
I’m not really sure why your ex-husband called it a “conversation” when he actually meant a lecture, but that sounds different from what I *thought* “circular conversation” meant.
Possibly these two things may actually be just variations of the same things.
Recently I wrote to a person I don’t feel comfortable having conversations with any more.
There were important things that I just really needed to say, once and for all, so I said them.
Originally I did think that she might write back, but when she didn’t, it became a monologue.
I think it is certainly possible that she might have enough common sense still left to figure that she just did not want to (ever again) give me any more evidence that she thought I could possibly use against her.
And I’m starting to feel the same way about contacting her.
Evidently it works both ways.
Once again this is (in most ways) actually quite different from what you’re talking about. But I was getting reminded.
Note. Any evidence I ever get against her is used *only* to do research about her problems or potential problems or to point out where she may possibly be wrong.
NOT to just throw it back in her face.
But she probably does not know the difference any more, and I can certainly understand how for privacy reasons she would probably prefer that I not know anything.
(Or at least, not know anything beyond the dozens of clues she has already given me.)
(She herself tends to seem somewhat clueless, which is exactly why I sometimes call her that [only to myself, not to her, but privately that’s become my nickname for her] [I do not believe in name-calling, this was when I just needed a name to refer to her by besides her actual name].)Borderline personality disorder?
Or could be covert narcissism maybe.
Much less obvious than that other guy’s wife (the one that you said she sounded similar to yours if not more so).She is definitely a very strange woman and you are definitely not a bad husband or a bad person.
Like I said. Try to divorce her as soon as possible and try to get custody of the kids. It sounds like she does not even want them but you still might have to (repeatedly) present evidence in court that she is an unfit mother (which she obviously is, but it will presumably not be that obvious to a judge).
Good luck. You’ll need it.