8 Characteristics of Circular Conversations

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  • #554
    Alex Delon
    Keymaster

      8 SIGNS OF A CIRCULAR CONVERSATION
      1. You find yourself teaching an adult about basic communication skills and basic human emotions. You are actually trying to teach them how to talk nicely to people, something we all learned in kindergarten. “Now Johnny, we mustn’t talk that way to others.” Healthy adults just do not need to be taught the golden rule. But narcissistic people seem to have missed those lessons. When I found myself explaining to my husband, a full grown man and father of two boys, how his tone of voice influences people’s feelings, I realized we had a real problem. The fact of the matter is that any full-grown adult knows how to treat other people. They know how to be kind and good, but simply choose not to.

      2. You find yourself thinking, “If I could just find the right words, then he would stop treating me this way.” Or, “The right words will help him to understand why what he is doing is hurting me, and he will stop.” I absolutely wore my brain out with this one! There simply is not an angle left that I didn’t try. “Maybe these words, this approach, this tone of voice, this perspective, etc.” It was endless effort and extremely taxing on both my head and my heart. To top it all off, it never did any good! All it did was keep all the responsibility on my own shoulders. I used to think, “If I am not able to find the right words, then I cannot be mad at him for not getting it.” What!! Since when did I become the counselor? I am telling you now that it is NOT your job to help them understand. I am not saying don’t make any effort when someone has hurt your feelings. But I am saying there is a point where it no longer becomes your responsibility to keep explaining it to someone who doesn’t get it and clearly doesn’t want to.

      3. These conversations are antagonistic and combative. I reached a point where I would say to my friend, “I don’t even know how to have a normal conversation with my husband.” You see, narcissistic people don’t see conversations as a time of connection and reciprocity. Actually, in their eyes, there is no such thing as conversation. It is verbal competition instead. Most of the time, they seem to want communication to be difficult and a problem. They don’t want to understand. They want only to maintain their position of superiority. In order to truly understand and sympathize with someone, you must allow a moment or two to be about the other person. Narcissistic people absolutely cannot do this. Not even for a tiny moment can life be about someone else. When they can keep the conversation confusing and difficult, it can stay centered around them. Then they have a “duty” to explain and educate the other person, which maintains their superiority and arrogance.

      4. There is no resolution in these conversations. You know that place, when you have been in a heated discussion with a loved one, where you feel reconciliation? This is a moment where both parties feel sorry for the pain they have caused. Both feel humbleness, honesty, and compassion. In this moment, you feel very open and connected with each other. Well, this place does NOT exist with a narcissistic person! You will NEVER get there!! It does not matter whether you are in the original heated discussion or in the 100th discussion after it trying to get resolution. These discussions can last 5 minutes or 5 hours. It simply does not matter. You will not be able to find a peaceful and compassionate ending. For more detail on the lack of reconciliation, read my article No Reconciliation Ever.

      5. They use the topic switcheroo. If a narcissistic person does not like the direction of the current discussion, I guarantee you they will switch it around. Here’s an example: We were at the counselor together trying to find some middle ground in order to save our marriage. Here is how the discussion went:

      Him: I have asked you to tell me what I am doing wrong in our marriage, and you won’t tell me.

      Me: I have told you many times why I am frustrated. I am done telling you.

      Him: I have asked you to tell me right when it is happening. I think the problem really is that you say, “Yes,” and yet you DO no.

      Me: What does that mean?

      Him: You told me that you will point things out as they happen and yet you don’t do that.

      Me: I have pointed them out at the time, and that didn’t work. So I tried an hour later, that didn’t work, I tried the next day, that didn’t work. I have tried everything I know to try, so now I am done trying.

      Him (arrogantly): So you said yes and you are doing no. You do that with lots of things.

      Me: Now what are you talking about?

      Him: I’m talking about the windows in the house. You still haven’t gotten those done, but you said you would.

      What! You’ve got to be kidding me! Two years earlier, we had talked about replacing the windows in the house. I had gotten some estimates, but it went no further than that. For two years, nothing else had been said about it by either one of us until that day at the counselor. Now all of a sudden it is all my fault?

      6. They play the eternal victim. This victim role is perpetual and ever-lasting. Some of their favorite phrases are:

      I had a tough childhood.

      My dad/mom treated me badly.

      I have a low self-esteem because of my childhood.

      Nobody likes me. Everybody is against me. “Poor me” is the attitude.

      These become excuses and crutches. They play the victim card so everyone will feel badly for them and let them off the hook. Then they don’t have to “fix” anything and can go merrily on their way treating people however they choose. This victim roles prevents them from ever having to be accountable for themselves.

      One time, I was trying to explain to my husband how his quickness to be offended hurt those around him. I told him that he gets so quickly offended over things that shouldn’t even be offensive in the first place. He asked for an example. So I reminded him about a time when I had asked our son to help him empty the dishwasher. This offended him so badly that he stormed out of the room and closed himself in the guest bedroom for 45 minutes. When I finally went up to talk to him, he told me that the incident had communicated to him that I thought he was an idiot, incapable of emptying the dishwasher by himself. I asked him why that thought would even cross his mind. He did not remember this incident but explained how he could see himself reacting that way. He added, “You know how much I struggle with feeling worthless. I was treated very poorly by my dad, you know.” This repeatedly becomes an excuse, a justification, and a hindrance all at once. The attitude is, you have to get off my back because I struggle with self-esteem and your words are damaging me more. You need to feel sorry for me because I was treated so badly as a child. I don’t have to fix this or get any better because it really isn’t my fault.

      7. You walk away thinking, “What in the world just happened?” These conversations are like no other. Your head is left spinning. You will feel as though you have used every ounce of energy you have and yet accomplished absolutely nothing. You replay this conversation over and over for hours or even days, obsessing over things you should have said or could have said better. You now have a million arguments laid out in your head, left unaddressed in the actual conversation because it was spinning too fast.

      8. They give you the silent treatment. I am not referring to the silent treatment that might last for days on end. I am not talking about casually ignoring someone. This silent treatment is extremely direct and purposeful. It is a little hard to describe, so bear with me. When he has become offended by something I have said, done, not said, or not done, it is immediately crystal clear. Not because of what he says, but because of his body language and lack of words. He has this way of existing in space that communicates complete disdain for the other person. He stares at absolutely nothing, in a very contemplative manner. This silence can last for a few minutes or for quite a while. It creates a tension that cannot be described in words. The grip of that tension is felt mentally, emotionally, and even physically. Getting out of this entrapment proves to be incredibly difficult and staying takes an incredible toll on your body, mind, heart and soul.

      If you find yourself really feeling like something is consistently wrong in conversation with a specific person, listen to your instincts. These circular conversations can take many different shapes for different people. But many of the overall characteristics are the same. One thing is always for sure, the one on the receiving end of the conversation from hell is left feeling emotionally drained and completely hopeless. Learn to cut these conversations off before they can even get started. No one should ever be forced to sit through them. You have a right to walk away!

    Viewing 6 replies - 1 through 6 (of 6 total)
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    • #652203
      Rebecca
      Participant

        1,2,4,7, and to a lesser extent, 5 and 6.
        Experienced by me with a particular person.
        Possible reasons for this might include:
        ADHD, dyslexia, bipolar, borderline, borderline with narcissistic tendencies, migraine disorder, and being abused or neglected or not receiving enough love or enough appropriate teaching or guidance about communication and people and life.
        1 and 2 are especially strong.
        Read your first few sentences and was already thinking “good grief, that’s her” or possibly all of the above.
        In my view, people who do approximately half of these, but do certainly show *some* consideration for others and *some* appreciation for others’ point of view at least *sometimes*, and who above all do really seem like they *can’t* communicate rather than won’t, are probably *not* narcissists and may well *actually* have learning disorders and/or autism spectrum disorders (instead of just pretending to or seeming to).
        When the diagnosis matters.
        When there’s a real chance that the person really could have a brain disorder (or maybe more than one) which affects communication, and when you can actually get them to go to a professional and get diagnosed.
        Which probably isn’t often, as far as that last part.
        I do strongly suspect that *for some people* the actual original problem is that their brain disorder (or maybe more than one) is harmfully affecting their communication skills, which is in turn harmfully affecting their people skills, which is in turn harmfully affecting their friendships and relationships, of which they somehow seem to have no clue because *something* (which could be a brain disorder, or something else, or both) is preventing them from understanding that the problem is actually even their own.
        The kind of people I’m thinking of, I believe that they genuinely don’t understand.
        Somewhat depending on what their other symptoms and circumstances are, of course.
        Also. The exact same people may believe that *you* are tricking them, gaslighting them, using circular reasoning/circular logic with them, etc.
        And they probably sincerely believe it.
        I’ve experienced *that* kind of thing plenty and it sure is frustrating. (Most of it with one person over the course of many years.)
        Never did experience any *deliberate* gaslighting, that I know of, but *finally* found out just this year that it doesn’t have to be deliberate and that *anyone* can do it. (Not just people who have disorders. Anybody.)
        In theory, at least, I could accidentally gaslight her, she could accidentally gaslight me, we could *both* make each other doubt our reason or our sanity or our common sense, and it does not even have to be on purpose.
        Interesting theory.
        Could be true.

        #652204
        Rebecca
        Participant

          1,2,4,7, and to a lesser extent, 5 and 6.
          Experienced by me with a particular person.
          Possible reasons for this might include:
          ADHD, dyslexia, bipolar, borderline, borderline with narcissistic tendencies, migraine disorder, and being abused or neglected or not receiving enough love or enough appropriate teaching or guidance about communication and people and life.
          Or possibly all of the above.
          1 and 2 are especially strong.
          Read your first few sentences and was already thinking “good grief, that’s her” in the first few moments.
          In my view, people who do approximately half of these, but do certainly show *some* consideration for others and *some* appreciation for others’ point of view at least *sometimes*, and who above all do really seem like they *can’t* communicate rather than won’t, are probably *not* narcissists and may well *actually* have learning disorders and/or autism spectrum disorders (instead of just pretending to or seeming to).
          When the diagnosis matters.
          When there’s a real chance that the person really could have a brain disorder (or maybe more than one) which affects communication, and when you can actually get them to go to a professional and get diagnosed.
          Which probably isn’t often, as far as that last part.
          I do strongly suspect that *for some people* the actual original problem is that their brain disorder (or maybe more than one) is harmfully affecting their communication skills, which is in turn harmfully affecting their people skills, which is in turn harmfully affecting their friendships and relationships, of which they somehow seem to have no clue because *something* (which could be a brain disorder, or something else, or both) is preventing them from understanding that the problem is actually even their own.
          The kind of people I’m thinking of, I believe that they genuinely don’t understand.
          Somewhat depending on what their other symptoms and circumstances are, of course.
          Also. The exact same people may believe that *you* are tricking them, gaslighting them, using circular reasoning/circular logic with them, etc.
          And they probably sincerely believe it.
          I’ve experienced *that* kind of thing plenty and it sure is frustrating. (Most of it with one person over the course of many years.)
          Never did experience any *deliberate* gaslighting, that I know of, but *finally* found out just this year that it doesn’t have to be deliberate and that *anyone* can do it. (Not just people who have disorders. Anybody.)
          In theory, at least, I could accidentally gaslight her, she could accidentally gaslight me, we could *both* make each other doubt our reason or our sanity or our common sense, and it does not even have to be on purpose.
          Interesting theory.
          Could be true.

          #652205
          Rebecca
          Participant

            Second post by me is posted as correction to first one.
            (Sorry, I don’t know how to edit in these forums.)
            Doesn’t much matter because most of the time no one is here anyway.
            But just in case anyone besides me does ever happen to read this.
            We really, really need either more people here or another group of forums which would be very similar but more popular.
            Enjoying posting here anyway but seriously there is literally only me here most of the time.
            It’s like arriving at a class *after* everyone has already gone home, but the teacher (Renee in this case) has fortunately at least left the topic of discussion available in handouts and on the blackboard for you to find.
            Thank you, Renee, I appreciate it very much. ☺️

            #652206
            Rebecca
            Participant

              Thank you to Renee for the useful information and the informative education.
              Many thanks.

              #652207
              Rebecca
              Participant

                Often had wondered before if this sort of thing is what is meant by being “caught in a circular conversation” (or stuck, trapped, etc.).
                Yes. This is definitely it.
                Been in so many of these I can’t even count them any more.
                And most were all with the same person.
                Sigh.

                #652208
                Rebecca
                Participant

                  I need to get numbers 1 and 2 printed out and put on a wall sometime.
                  To remind me not to cooperate with or participate in *that* kind of thing, any more, ever again.
                  When a person is like that, or is acting like that, or is treating you like that, for ANY reason, just get out of the circle.
                  (Easier said than done. That’s why I might need a reminder. Why *all* sensible, reasonable people might.)

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